Curse

Str0b0 · Jan 24, 2007, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

I say go with the fashion of "shadow of colossus" style.

Give us one huge monster like urgoz but don't give us those small little long track BS that force us to stay there for 3 hours. I remember the day when people first find out about bone dragon, people would go out of their way just to get their butt handed to them; it wasnt until release that bone dragon were just a weakling and ignored, then it came back strong again, but strong in a different way. I would really like alot more places like majesty's rest.

For example, 4 colossus that travel across a continent. The players can run around the continent in searching for it. Everytime you enter a zone with a colosus, the enviorment color theme is entirely different, hence telling the player it is there. (so no traveling across the explorable area just to not find it)

Basically the principle is, give more fast pace fun to PvEers. You can just log on and go in to have have fun, and feel deeply satisfied after playing it. Hence,
Defeating Strong monster = satisfaction
Not requiring to go through 3 hours = fast pace
Decent rewards = ++satisfaction
Changing enviorment = freshness

That is a cool idea. Sort of like the Uber Diablo in Diablo 2 2 sort of a random super monster that dropped magical goodness.

Sir Tificate · Jan 24, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Better bars/playable bars with secondary classes would be great. Just like 5 bars per monster, or bits of bars that go together to form a full bar.

Then, if Anet wanted the monsters using all of their skills, they would all have to be useful in playable bars, so they'd have to make them better.

Also, enemies with res sigs would be ok for things like bosses or quest enemies, but not for your average monster, since you will end up fighting groups over and over again anyway. Playing whack-a-mole with each and every group of monsters would get a tad boring.

Vinraith · Jan 24, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

/signed

Better enemy AI is always a good thing.

Riceboi · Jan 24, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Why don't we just raise the level cap while we are at it?

baddog992 · Jan 24, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Oh my god, people complain about running monks, I couldnt imagine people who had to fight enemies that had good/great skills, all the time. I remember the last topic about pvp and how some people wanted to make it easier to hold agro on mosters and such.

-.- · Jan 24, 2007, 03:47 AM // 03:47

Hell no, I don't want to see countless threads about people who can't get past a certain mission because of a Boss or monsters.

Tortoise · Jan 24, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

While I wouldn't mind better bars for the enemies I'm afraid Squidget is probably right: even if you give the AI decent bars, they'll screw it up in the execution 90% of the time. It would be scary to encounter a Euro-spike in PvE but I cannot imagine the AI being good enough to pull something like that off (which, according to some is still one of the easier GvG builds to run).

I'll second Thom Bangaltar's idea though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

I think they should just allow pvp players to control AI monsters. I'd choose a boss and just destroy people. The wait for mallyx would be insane.

Awesome... Simply awesome. Really, if done properly this could add an entire new level to the game. Man, would I have fun with that!

guffey · Jan 24, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

/signed.

will be a great way to implement a PvE challange. it would also reduce the class racism. i would actually be able to use my mesmer which no one seems to want until the Abbadons mouth where the 2 bosses next to each other crush idiots. a mesmer has the ability to completely shut down a boss..

Each area would need different builds for the area to make it more
of a challange and having to adjust your skill bar alot more to accomidate. i would agree for less mobs, that are maxed around lvl 22 with good balanced FULL skillbars, not 6. Sure it may take alot more programming but man would i love it. you could change a creature as a assassin a little bit by having them wait till the wariors angage and then shadow step next to the casters and start slashing away, causing things like blinding flash and enchantment shatters to be brought into play.

I would rather have a hard fight than what im doing currently which is with 3 heroes and an extra healer henchi (im at vabbi) with my nuker and i just have to do the same repepetive buttons to destroy mobs in short amounts of time. make them smart and use spells and skills that actually can affect a characters playing style. make mobs actually think about what to attack first instead of always going for the weakest armor, or the biggest dmg dealer. mabye have a mes creature try and shut down the human player high dmg dealers why their warriors are programmed to go after monks first. and Enememy eles nuking warriars that are on their monks making it a pain to stand and try to actually kil the monk because your getting knocked down by a meteor every few seconds. AI could stand in friendly AoE to try and turn human players away from them.

i also like the idea of having better chances of drops with more human players. not number of players but on number of HUMAN players. this would highly discourage farming and would make the economy and the comradarie much better. you still have to win the random drop to get it but you have a better chance of getting a drop.

i also like the idea of making you use less people for the elite areas instead of just super high level monsters. Last Days Dawn was an amazing quest because of this. yes many people did it from yaks bend, but it was a huge excitment factor when my group of 3 friends and I were able to finally beat it. just because of the challange in it, it was fun. the amount of time it took to adjust my build to get the right one to win eventually.

just my 2 cents.
/signed again.

LONGA · Jan 24, 2007, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Compare DoA with Factions Elite missons.IThink Factions Elite missons are more fun to play.You need to use your your head to slove puzzle.
No fighting aganist 8 boss equivalant monster group just like fighting 16+ monster at the same time .It just insane that any class with out portective spirit gonna survie any attack even with "mass wanding".

Alleji · Jan 24, 2007, 05:45 AM // 05:45

I remember someone posted a thread on GWO titled "How would you redesign DoA" shortly after it was released... and I posted a long rant, a lot like the OP, that making monsters deal triple digit damage isn't a good design solution, while giving them real skills bars would be.

So, yeah, I agree 100%.

I'm currently getting my mesmer through Nightfall to cap some skills and playing PvE as a mesmer seems pretty dull... because there's absolutely no need for mesmers. What good is diverting a skill for 60 seconds when fights last between 15 and 30? What's the point of shame if AI monks' bars are so crappy that you don't even notice if they heal or not?

Monsters with real skills instead of stone sheath and ravenous gaze would make this game more fun. Maybe I'd even endure more than 2 hours of PvE a day... casting frustration on stuff and then PDing every irrelevant skill said "stuff" uses is only fun for so long.

Skye Marin · Jan 24, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Builds that the monsters can play well are almost always some form of pressure gimmick. Mass hex stacks, IWAY, thumpers + searing flames, ect. The AI is good at handling C + Space or spam builds, they're good at keeping track of hex timers, and they're remarkably good at interrupts. However, giving monsters hex builds or IWAY builds isn't going to make PvE any more challenging, since those are all fairly one-dimensional gimmicks that are easily countered by putting the right skills on your bar.

The solution, then, is to have a variety of different profession builds to be scattered around the mobs of the same type. Example, a third of each of the mesmers found in a area can carry Migrane, Crippling Anguish, or Ineptitude with a variety of other skills. While you could have your Searing Flames eles on one side of the map, the other side will be sure to pack Shatter Stone and Mind Freeze. The idea being that, when facing many diverse builds, you'll want a diverse build yourself. Skill, then, will be the deciding factor. If some group of people can decide on a skill set that's best suited for the "Metagame of the Zone", then they have shown skill in correct skill selection.

I absolutely agree that skill diversity is the means to a true challenge. Not jacking up the foe level and smearing Environment Effects. After getting my Ele to Domain of Anguish, I've concluded it's simply not as fun as it possibly could be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Spikes in PvE tend to happen in two ways.
One is when you're first approaching a group and the monsters use their first skill on whoever comes into range. If that skill is a DD, you have a spike. This is pretty much the core of the healer-tank-nuker concept that dominates PvE in most games and does marginally well in Guild Wars.

This is a tactic used in PvP too, with the likes of Searing Flames and Essence Meteor Showers. If the initial damage burst can be absorbed and healed, and the team ressed, the advantage is yours. My advice though, is that a Hero Mesmer with Cry of Frustration will go a very long way to prevent "death by initial spike".

Orinn · Jan 24, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

by far Anet's defination of "challenge" seem to mean cheating by the AI using the higher levels, double damage from bosses, environmental effects etc.

But keep in mind that a game that only 10% of the gaming population can play and enjoy means a game than only 10% of your potential/intended market share will buy and continue to support.

Emphasis of games should always be first and foremost fun, not frustration.

How to do that? I am not paid why should i tell you how to make a game fun.

/signed, with this quoted for emphasis. Real skill bars, sure, but if you start giving monsters real skill bars, they should LOSE double-damage level 28 half-casting time half-condition time half-hex time. If you want them to be more challenging in a traditional sense, then you need to remove the mechanics that allow them to easily surpass players in DPS, spike damage, and survivability.

The way PvP is set up, you're dealing with opponents who are facing the same restrictions you are, but who are creative, coordinated, and very dangerous not because they're inherently better, but because they can adapt to changing situations.

PvE is set up that you face superior numbers, with higher damage output. The drawback is that they cannot fight in a creative fashion. Tehy always follow the same script, and that makes them beatable. If you give the PvE monsters more build flexibility and more options, then you need to remove the things that set them apart as inherently superior numerically: higher levels, higher attribute pools, immunity to environmental effects, and (for bosses) special inherent qualities like "half casting time, double damage on all skills."

DoA is a perfect example of what ANet does to "challenge" PvE players: just crank up the number of mobs and the damage they do. I don't like this solution, but giving them better bars on top of that is just miserable. Remove the monster-only skills, THEN give them better bars to work with. Remove their inherent qualities that make them superior to players, then make them more able to use the skills they have. Do NOT give them better skillbars and leave the absurd, immersion-breaking "monster only" skills in the game.

Nickhimself · Jan 24, 2007, 07:01 AM // 07:01

I don't know why enemies don't have a decent build anyway. Why give something 5,000,000,000 hit points when you could give it half of that and REAL skills that people use.

Gimmick builds shouldn't be counted, like Ruby Djinn's spamming SF. That's stupid. But yeah, enemies with smarter AI would be nice.

Zazoo · Jan 24, 2007, 07:38 AM // 07:38

I do not agree.

What you are suggesting will not be good for the casual player.

For instance I have taken breaks from GW for months at a time and sometimes when I get back into it it takes a while for me not to die continuously because im facing some of the more difficult mobs.

Once you get used to them sure they are not very difficult but it can be very frustating at times and just makes me stop playing again.

I think most mobs should be as they are now with a few Elite mobs (Boss mobs) in each area that have the type of thing you are suggesting.

Lady Lozza · Jan 24, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

If we are /signing then, /signed

Very good and refreshing idea.

Omega X · Jan 24, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

by far Anet's defination of "challenge" seem to mean cheating by the AI using the higher levels, double damage from bosses, environmental effects etc.

But keep in mind that a game that only 10% of the gaming population can play and enjoy means a game than only 10% of your potential/intended market share will buy and continue to support.

Emphasis of games should always be first and foremost fun, not frustration.

How to do that? I am not paid why should i tell you how to make a game fun.

QFT!

I don't know how many times I've said the exact same thing.

Lonesamurai · Jan 24, 2007, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Tificate

Better bars/playable bars with secondary classes would be great. Just like 5 bars per monster, or bits of bars that go together to form a full bar.

Then, if Anet wanted the monsters using all of their skills, they would all have to be useful in playable bars, so they'd have to make them better.

hell, ANet could make it a competition and have the skill bars done by the community...

There are only so many different types of enemies and it would be easy to update all the enemies in all three chapters to use a second profession or just to update them with an 8 skill bar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Tificate

Also, enemies with res sigs would be ok for things like bosses or quest enemies, but not for your average monster, since you will end up fighting groups over and over again anyway. Playing whack-a-mole with each and every group of monsters would get a tad boring.

Some groups in nightfall already have an use res Sigs

samcobra · Jan 24, 2007, 10:20 AM // 10:20

I Want To See Boonprot Mobs Dammit!

Marth Reynolds · Jan 24, 2007, 10:49 AM // 10:49

/signed

would be nice to implement smarter enemies, and i don't think they would be that hard just refreshing and spuprising during battle

Sakki · Jan 24, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

It wont be very newbie friendly IMO.

/not signed